Planning and Zoning Board

APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 The Niles Plan Commission and Zoning Board of Appeals was called to order at 7:00 P.M. Chairman Kanelos asked everyone to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. Present along with Chairman Thomas Kanelos and Village Attorney Joseph Annunzio were Vice-Chairman Karen Dimond, Commissioners Thomas Surace, Barbara Nakanishi, Robert Schulter and Morgan Dubiel. Also present was Charles Ostman, Director of Community Development and Richard Wlodarski, Assistant Director of Community Development. Commissioner Angelo Troiani was absent. Chairman Kanelos appointed Commissioner Dubiel as acting Secretary in Commissioner Troiani’s absence. Chairman Kanelos stated are there any corrections, additions or clarifications to the minutes of the January 4, 2010 meeting. [There were none.] There being none, I’ll entertain a motion to approve. Commissioner Dubiel moved to approve the Minutes of January 4, 2010 as presented. Seconded by Commissioner Surace, on roll call the vote was: AYES: 5 Dimond, Surace, Kanelos, Schulter, Dubiel NAYS: 0 ABSTAIN: 0 Nakanishi ABSENT: 1 Troiani There being five (5) affirmative votes the motion carried. Chairman Kanelos stated there is no old business so we will move right to the new business which is a seminar that Charles Ostman will be coordinating along with Joseph Annunzio. Charles Ostman, Director of Community Development stepped forward and stated I have provided a brief memo for the Commissioners. Some of the topics discussed tonight will be the findings of fact presented by Joe Annunzio with Tom Kanelos citing the conditions for a variation or a special use; open meetings act we will touch on; sign code – we will give you an update as to what is going with that. Another update would be Page 1 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 comprehensive plan; landscape ordinance. I went thru a website and pulled out some questions and answers there could be some good discussion on. The other thing I want to mention, I have an orientation package from a training seminar about a year ago. I will get that to you if anyone is interested. There is also a packet from Joe Annunzio regarding zoning law. These are available on the website but I printed out a few copies. It is from a law firm that specializes in municipal law. It is a zoning and administrative handbook and it is meant for Commissioners like you, and a zoning administration tools of the trade which is also meant for you. We keep looking for additional publications to provide this committee the tools to increase your knowledge in regard to zoning laws. We also look for outside training that may be available. In previous years they did offer some local training at the community colleges but to date we haven’t found any. We will keep our eyes open. I will turn it over to Joe to discuss findings of fact. Commissioner Dubiel stated I don’t know if everyone looked at their zoning books yet. Some of the pages are off. I can show you after the meeting. Mr. Ostman stated let me take a look at that after the meeting and we will get that clarified. Joseph Annunzio, Village Attorney, stepped forward. We aren’t going to talk about abstract theory on special uses or variances. I will teach what I teach my environmental law class at John Marshall. That is, how to read a statute. The biggest problem is people tend to look at the entire statute as a whole and try to deal with it as a whole. If you do that with any ordinance or statute that is written, you’ll get lost and won’t really understand what the statute is saying. Consequently, in a position like you’re in, you will fail. The technique is to take the sentences and break them into their elements. When I say element, it is a section of the sentence, a phrase in which one answer is appropriate. I will show you how to do this with special uses. Whenever you deal with a special use you have to decide whether the person who is seeking the special use meets that standard in order to obtain the special use. If you look at section IV of h of special uses, it gets right to the standards. The next question is what are the important facts to obtain from the person seeking the special use so you can make an informed decision as to whether or not the special use is appropriate. Let’s start with IV – Standards. No special use shall be granted by the Village Board unless the special use [inaudible.] That is very important. That sentence tells you nobody gets a special use unless Page 2 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 they meet a, b & c. They must be all the elements within a,b & c – not just some. Number a – is deemed necessary for the public convenience at that location. There are three questions that need to be asked. First is the obvious one – at that location. You need to know that. It is important for you to understand what the words mean. Let’s take the word necessary. Things that are indispensable to living - necessities for life. Anything less than that is an indication that it is not necessary. Now you have three questions that have to be asked and answered. If you get a negative in any one of those three, they don’t meet the criteria, they’re finished. They don’t get the special use. What is important in the finding of fact is those questions are asked and answered and there are facts that support those three elements - a. If you don’t have the facts that support those three elements you will have an incomplete finding of fact. Let’s go to b. Is so designed, located or proposed (first element) to be operated (second element) that the public health, safety and welfare (third element) will be protected (fourth element.) What is meant by health, safety & welfare? Basically it means is it in the best interest of the citizens. If not, then it is not going to meet the test. Is it so designed, located or proposed? They will have to come with information that shows it is designed, where it is located and what they are proposing. If they have something less than that, they fail. It is important to remember when you’re going through these criteria; they have a duty to tell you as much as they know. That is why most of the time people have attorneys present so they meet the criteria. If the attorney fails or you are unclear on what the attorney is saying, you have to ask the questions. Commissioner Dubiel stated doesn’t the packet they give us answer all those questions without having to be publicly stated at the microphone. Mr. Annunzio stated it could, but what you do then is incorporate that as an exhibit. I’ve been doing this for a few years, I’m sure Chuck will say the same thing. I’ve never seen a packet answer all these questions. Third criteria – will not cause substantial injury to the value of other property in the neighborhood where it is located. You have to ask what neighborhood, you have to know the other property values. So if someone comes here and says they want a special use, the question is – c. Will cause substantial injury to the value of other property in the neighborhood in which it is located. If they don’t have that information for you then they don’t get the special use. Page 3 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 Commissioner Dubiel stated is there a statutory law that tells us what the statute is. Mr. Annunzio stated all of it is out there. This law has been going on for 100 years. It is a case by case basis. You are not going to get the answer – 5% from now on. That is why you are sitting there. There are definitions, there are statutes, and there are all kinds of tools to make a decision as to what is best for the community. Ultimately that is up to you – to interpret. The important part is whatever decision you make is backed up with facts that support the questions that are being asked here. Chairman Kanelos stated a lot rests on that term “necessary”. The way it was defined, I’m having a hard time thinking of any variation [special use] we’ve given in the time I’ve been on the Board that is necessary the way you defined necessary. Obviously we have a lot of leeway with what we determine as necessary. And that word convenience, improving the quality of life for the Village of Niles. For example, having another body shop in town. We can determine that it will improve the quality of life because the residents have another alternative for repairing their car, which is important. But it is not like clothing, food and lodging. But we can still determine if it is necessary. Mr. Annunzio stated those were examples I gave you. The important part is that you back up the facts to show it is necessary. What you believe necessary is. If you don’t know what necessary is, come and see me and I’ll pull your case out. You can take a look at that as a guide. Chairman Kanelos stated I can’t think of any instance of having that information, as to how it is going to impact other property values, other than an intuitive … and that is what we’re going to have to go on, right? Mr. Annunzio stated no, you can ask that. What are the other property values? Commissioner Schulter stated for instance, if in the business district and somebody is requesting to put a kennel there and it was right next to an existing residential subdivision, by putting that kennel there would lower the property values of people next to it with all the dogs barking. Chairman Kanelos stated we would have to determine if it is substantial. Page 4 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 What are the property values of the other properties? Commissioner Schulter stated substantial to me would be more than $5,000. Mr. Annunzio stated then that would be your vote. You would vote yes. The question is if somebody appeals it, whether your definition of substantial would be sufficient. We are talking in the abstract now. Commissioner Dubiel stated we would ask questions just like we did with the guy moving over to Salerno. He had the body shop with state of the art stuff, keep fumes down, etc. Mr. Annunzio stated the important part of this little piece that I’m giving you right now is you said you have this intuitive feeling if it’s a good idea or a bad idea. That’s not enough anymore. We can’t allow this Board to do that anymore. They have a much more important role than simply giving their intuition as to whether or not something is a good idea. You’ve got to follow the laws as they are written. I’m giving a method in which you can follow the law that is easier for you by turning this into a set of elements, questions and answers. Chairman Kanelos stated for example, if someone comes in like the gentleman with the gold and we feel that looks kind of like a pawn shop, we think it’s going to hurt the property values of the neighboring areas but yet no one can tell us what the property value of the neighboring area is … Mr. Annunzio stated no, you can tell him we’d like information of what the surrounding property area is. Chairman Kanelos stated so if he doesn’t have it we either table it or vote it down. Commissioner Dubiel stated tabling, in Roberts Rules of Order, is a specific action. I don’t think tabling is what we think it is. Chairman Kanelos stated we’d ask that it be continued. Mr. Annunzio stated you have a right to do that too. You don’t have to do everything bang, bang, bang and move on. Page 5 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 Commissioner Schulter stated have you had any applications for special uses where a business applicant came in and it surrounded next to residential. The Village sent out the notices to the residents next to it. Nobody showed up and for some reason the Board didn’t approve its special use, does that person automatically go in for an appeal. Mr. Annunzio stated first of all, you’re a recommending Board. Your job is to create a record in which the Board of Trustees can make their final decision. It’s important that you understand that. The way administrative law works and we’ve been talking about this forever… We’re going to have someone from Klein, Thorpe & Jenkins coming Saturday morning – it’s an open meeting – and he’s going to talk about that specific issue and it is this: you guys create the record. Once the record is closed and you close the record, the only thing the Board of Trustees can go on is what the record says. That means someone who lives in the neighborhood didn’t get a chance to talk about his concerns which may or may not be something that is in the record. If it’s not in the record, he can’t come up at that time and make his complaint because he already had his chance during the Zoning Board. Now if he has questions about something that is already in the record then he can come up and ask a question. That is something that the President of the Village has to make a determination of is to whether he is allowed to speak. The point is you can’t reopen the record to allow new testimony by the time it gets to the Board. Commissioner Schulter stated it is final for this Commission but when it goes in from of the Trustees, can he make his concerns to the Trustees. Mr. Annunzio stated if it’s new information, no. What the Board can do is say we don’t have a complete record, we are going to remand it back to the Zoning Board for more information concerning what this guy was worried about. Commissioner Dubiel stated just to understand, Vice-Chairman Dimond does a great job of going through each of those points. Must it be done that way or can we say the evidence presented satisfies 4a, b & c as well as 5. Mr. Annunzio stated no, you’ve got to numerate the evidence. Commissioner Dubiel stated so you’ve got to physically read this every time. Page 6 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 Mr. Annunzio stated the way it really should work. When you set up the finding of fact, you should always have the law near the beginning so everyone knows what facts are going to be set to this law. There are certain things you can do to make it easier for somebody so you don’t have to keep re- saying the same elements every time. For instance, when you talk about the location – at the beginning you can say the location is so and so and then you could put in parentheses location, so that every time you see the word location you are talking about that property again, so you don’t have to re- mention that property to make it less cumbersome to write. Every element that is in this ordinance needs to be addressed. If it is not addressed you are not doing your job and read into the record so when it comes time to write the finding of facts and create this document for the Trustees to use they have a complete document to make an informed decision. I also brought the standards for variation section. We are not going to go through that but I did the same thing with that. Take a look at what I did there. It is the same technique. Chairman Kanelos stated one thing I suggest to the Board is I request some of the questions that are asked be more targeted and following this format and laying it in the lap of the petitioner. The petitioner should tell us why this special use is necessary for the public convenience at that location. If we’re not satisfied with the information then press for more. In other municipalities I understand that is the way it’s done. Just put the question out there so we know clearly what we are covering and let them answer it. Mr. Annunzio stated if you don’t like their answer then they lose. Commissioner Dubiel stated in Pro Secor they have a format for a petitioner so they understand it. I think it is very helpful for us too. Is that possible to give the petitioner when they apply for a special use? Mr. Ostman stated we could definitely include that in the application packet. Commissioner Schulter stated is it standardized in other Villages from the Planning Commission whereas the Chief of Police, the Fire Chief look over the documents, they say not an issue. Mr. Annunzio stated yes and those questions that are asked and answered pertain to that. Page 7 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 Commissioner Dubiel stated from now on we are going to get a recommendation; we’re not going to have a neutral… Mr. Ostman stated there may be times… Sometimes we’re right in the middle and it’s up to this Board to decide. There are times we don’t know. Chairman Kanelos stated that is why we have Chuck. We can question him. You may not have an opinion at some time. Mr. Ostman stated Rich [Wlodarski, Assistant Director of Community Development] and I have a lot of discussions and still don’t come up with a recommendation to the Plan Commission. Mr. Annunzio stated the last thing is an issue regarding using property for something in the best interest of the Village, meaning retail sales as opposed to service or whatever. I’m telling you right now the only thing you can use to determine whether a piece of property deserves a special use is there. I suggest you do not ask them if they are going to generate retail sales. It is not in our criteria. It is not in a special use. Because of that it is not going to go anywhere. I suggest you look at the standards of special use and ask those questions to determine whether sales tax is going to be generated and determine if it is the best interest of the public health, safety and welfare. The original term [public health, safety and welfare] is found in the Constitution of the United States. The term is used in terms of money – tax collections and things like that. That is how they represented the government to be able to collect taxes. They were collected to help in providing public health, safety and welfare. Chairman Kanelos stated then any question that doesn’t pertain to these, I am at liberty to cut off the question and say it is not pertinent. Mr. Annunzio stated it is nice to know how things were done twenty-five years ago but it is not pertinent to that. Chairman Kanelos stated I’m thinking of an example where most of us asked a question about the auto shows. None of those questions, which took up about three pages in the minutes, were pertinent at all to any of this. Mr. Annunzio stated look at it another way. That was a benign example. What if you somebody is real good and directs you into asking questions Page 8 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 about something you are personally interested in because you like cars. You fail to answer these questions. If you asked those questions you found out it had no business being in the Village. You have to be careful. It’s fine to talk about things that you’re interested in, but be careful if you get a good attorney here to get you going in that direction, you might miss the boat. You might miss what the job is. Not whether or not they are going to have ’56 Chevys in the parking lot. I’m sorry I did that. I’ll expand on it tomorrow. Mr. Ostman stated no, to expand on it a little, banks is a hot issue and you heard the elected officials state we have enough banks in the Village. Again, you have to go to those standards in denying any bank and not just because you don’t like banks. Another application that recently came up was truck rental. That hearing – it was in everybody’s head to deny that. After all the testimony, there wasn’t any reason given or comments made by the Board as to why to deny. Chairman Kanelos stated people’s concern with safety. The residents concern with increased traffic. Commissioner Dubiel stated I think what Chuck is talking about is the findings of facts. Mr. Ostman stated every question asked him, he responded to. All of sudden it came up denied. I’ve seen that in quite a few cases. A few words are said by the applicant and all of a sudden everybody votes against it without any discussion. That’s the last thing you want to do because if it goes to appeal the judge just looks at that. Commissioner Dubiel stated it was just suggested it would cause injury. They had some good representation that night. Remember the pro they brought in from the home office and the guy there addressed it pretty well. Mr. Annunzio stated if somebody does meet all the criteria and the facts support that, your decision becomes administerial. The only thing you can base your final decision on is what is written there in terms of facts and how it relates to the law. If you don’t like oil change places because you don’t like the smell of oil and there’s nothing there that supports that…The beautiful thing about the law is if you look at things long enough, you’ll find a way to ask the questions. If you don’t support that with anything then you’ve failed. Page 9 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 Commissioner Dubiel stated it is also the purpose of the law, a mob of angry citizens can’t railroad somebody. Chairman Kanelos stated again, the example of the banks. Certainly we can’t deny it because there are enough banks and we don’t want anymore. Mr. Annunzio stated maybe you can deny it because it’s not necessary for the public convenience since there is a bank on every corner already. Commissioner Dubiel stated we would need the Building Department to give us “Niles now has X number of banks.” Commissioner Schulter stated the other confusing thing about the truck rental, there was a Board member actually on the side of the residents so it was confusing which way to go. Do you understand what I’m saying? Mr. Annunzio stated yes. The Board members must be educated so there is not some kind of cheering session in front of you. They have undo influence and they need to understand they may be exerting an undo influence which is inappropriate. Chairman Kanelos stated that Board member did say give them a right to speak. Mr. Annunzio stated everyone has a right to speak. But the Board member must understand he may be exerting undo influence. Chairman Kanelos stated Chuck’s point is well taken – we have to make sure we have failed in one of these points in order to be denied. Mr. Annunzio stated I’m going to quit now because I’ve already taken too much time. If you have any questions about what we have talked about, call me. That’s what I’m here for. Mr. Ostman stated the next topic is citing conditions for variations or special uses. When you are granted either you may apply conditions. These should be thought through ahead of time. The language has to be complete. I personally messed up on a couple of instances. When it came down to writing the ticket, I couldn’t. The business owner was in compliance of the ordinance that was drafted with the condition. It was about rental trucks at Assi Plaza. Page 10 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 The intent was to keep all the trucks behind the building. But the way the condition was written, it didn’t specifically say back behind the building. Our intent was to keep it within the fenced in area. Now he’s started parking trucks on the outside of the fence behind the building line. I messed up on the language and was unable to site him for any violation of the special use. I know Glenview and Northbrook really loaded up on conditions. Even though the testimony is there, for example, what are your hours going to be. They say 9 to 9 every day. Three or four years later it is turned into a twenty-four hour business. We have no local ordinance to prevent that. And there is nothing in the conditions that says twenty-four hour business so it can’t be enforced. Vice-Chairman Dimond stated when we are making a motion that either a variance or special use be granted and we want to put a condition on it, we have to be very clear. It is in the minutes but is it also on the permit that is issued? Mr. Ostman stated all we do is keep it in the ordinance itself. Commissioner Schulter stated it can’t be enforced because it is not an ordinance. So we can make the recommendation but realistically the Village can’t enforce it because it’s not an ordinance. Chairman Kanelos stated if we write it in as a condition when the motion is passed. Mr. Ostman stated if it’s specific, yes. Vice-Chairman Dimond stated if we say this is going to be the condition that it will only operate between 9 and 5, Monday through Friday, and not on holidays – that is something that would be specific enough for you to write a ticket if they violate it. Mr. Ostman stated absolutely. Anything in those conditions, if it is written correctly, I will enforce. Vice-Chairman Dimond stated that should be part of any motion that we would make. Page 11 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 Commissioner Dubiel stated or an amendment. Remember the incident when you said overnight and I said twelve hours. I figured it would better for us and for him to know. Mr. Ostman stated think of some of the testimony given, whether it be hours or… It is better to repeat it and take it out of the testimony and put it in as a condition. Mr. Annunzio stated when I write the ordinance the only thing I can go on is what is stated, not what I think is inferred or believed. Commissioner Dubiel stated there should be more dialogue among us before we … At the library we have to first put a motion out and then discuss it. But here we discuss before an actual motion. Vice-Chairman Dimond stated I don’t think we know what motion we want to make until we discuss it first. After we’ve discussed it maybe one person thinks it sounds like what I’m hearing is people are in favor of XYZ and that person can make a motion, if it is a special use, that it meets these criteria and maybe some of the conditions that have been mentioned. Chairman Kanelos stated they can be added as amendments to the motion. So we can discuss the motion again after it has been made. We need to keep in mind giving you tools to enforce with every special use that we put conditions on. Mr. Ostman stated we will try to do a better job citing conditions we feel. You may disagree with it. Commissioner Dubiel stated how about that gold one. Is that twenty-one day hold… that is part of the condition. Mr. Ostman stated Joe LoVerde asked that we create some conditions in granting a license to a second hand dealer. All of that language is in there including a twenty-one day hold and various other items. It will be coming to the Village Board next month. It is complete and been given to the Mayor to review and to Joe LoVerde who asked for it. I should have it back by the end of the week. Again, it covers all precious metals like the gold place we just approved. My previous secretary, Evy Gardner, brings that up all the time. She had drafted the ordinances before Joe picked it up. She noticed we were Page 12 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 really getting away from citing those conditions and she repeats it to me all the time. If you want it enforced, make sure you’re detailed and make sure it is exactly what you want. Then I can enforce it. In the cases we give a written notice first, if they don’t want it there I have the option of bringing it back here and reviewing the special use that was granted; or I can site them for a fine or court appearance. That’s my option. Commissioner Dubiel stated since the Chief said nothing about the twenty- one day hold, or seven or fourteen… Mr. Ostman stated I know it came out of my mouth out of the blue. As soon as he mentioned that other towns put a hold on it, now is the time to put a condition in there, not after the fact. Commissioner Dubiel stated the lowest was seven; the highest thirty days. I don’t want to be arbitrary. Mr. Ostman stated once again the ordinance is drafted to cover all that stuff in the future. Commissioner Dubiel stated at the Trustee level, can they strip that language or do they have to approve it. Commissioner Schulter stated if the business operator changed their minds, can they change it. Mr. Annunzio stated I don’t see why not. Commissioner Dubiel stated we are just recommending. They can accept or reject it point by point. Mr. Annunzio stated remember they have changed the condition counter to the facts provided to them. Commissioner Dubiel stated there was very little fact behind the condition. There’s no additional finding of fact. It all happens here. So they have to take it as a single piece, right? Mr. Annunzio stated if they are rational, but there is no guarantee they’ll be rational. Page 13 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 Chairman Kanelos stated the petitioner who came here doesn’t have the right to get them to change it from twenty-one to six. Mr. Annunzio stated they would have to remand it back to you. That would be the right way to do it. They don’t have to. They could vote and make it six. Commissioner Dubiel stated there is extra pressure on this Board to get it right. Let’s say the guy looks and says this is going to kill my business. If I’m the petitioner and it is another sixty or ninety days, that’s a lot of money gone. Chairman Kanelos stated some towns have seven days and some towns have thirty. How would we base our finding of fact if we chose seven or thirty or twenty-one or eighteen and a half? When we are choosing a condition like that there’s no way but to have some arbitrary-ness to that selection because if we pick thirty we have to have a finding of fact as to why we picked thirty, etc. Mr. Ostman stated I think we are talking about two different things. We are not talking standards anymore; we are talking about just placing conditions. Chairman Kanelos stated so conditions don’t have to be based on finding of facts. So again if we are picking twenty-one, all we can say is we determined through our questioning some municipalities have seven days, some have thirty. We decided somewhere in between was a fair place so we picked twenty-one. Mr. Annunzio stated a better thing to say is it takes fourteen days for our paper work to go through to determine whether or not this gold was stolen. Commissioner Dubiel stated the Chief said no problem, so now if I’m the petitioner in this particular case, I’m saying it is just arbitrary. It isn’t based on a finding of fact. Maybe the condition should be that the building department will come up with a [inaudible] working with the police, either seven or thirty day, how do you do that? Mr. Annunzio stated whatever they come up with has to have a rational relationship. Page 14 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 Chairman Kanelos stated it has to be passed as a condition or you won’t be able to enforce it. Mr. Annunzio stated we are beginning to split hairs here. In that particular instance it is an interesting problem. Here we are creating a division our experts don’t find a need for. Commissioner Schulter stated he should have put down the number of days. Chairman Kanelos stated by the same token if they say they are operating between 9 and 5 and we put a condition they have to operate between 9 and 5 we have to have a reason for it. When it comes to conditions they are going to be a little bit more arbitrary just by nature. Commissioner Dubiel stated lets say you can’t create noise between 10 p.m. and 2 a.m. Is that sufficient or of “x” decibels heard at so many feet away from… I have no skills in that. Mr. Ostman stated no you don’t and that’s where we have to do a better job and say let’s wait a minute, you just can’t say no noise between those hours. There has to be some measuring tool. Commissioner Dubiel stated I don’t know how to create proper conditions that are objective. Mr. Ostman stated on the flip side you have to understand the Village of Niles does not have a planner. Rich and I do everything on top of everything else out there. You should have seen your packages eight years ago. They were three pages long. We’ve come a long way. We will continue to improve it whatever you ask for. We are really going to think about those conditions in the future and guide you more. The next topic is the Open Meetings Act. It is Saturday at 9 o’clock in the Council Chambers. It is an open meeting, really meant for elected officials, but anybody is welcome to come. One of the issues is the Open Meetings Act and e-mails. When you produce a document in the Village it is obtainable by the public just by filling out a request. Commissioner Dubiel stated can we get village e-mails. That way it becomes part of the record. My concern is I’ve seen these things so “I want to see all of your e-mails between these dates” and it’s personal. Page 15 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 Mr. Annunzio stated that’s a good point. If you use your personal e-mail address and you do business on it, somebody can FOI your personal records. Vice-Chairman Dimond stated I don’t think we really need to e-mail each other. I really don’t like that idea. I think we ought to stay away from e- mails. We rarely have emergencies where you have to make a decision within a short time. Just make all our decisions right here. If you are telephoning just one other person, that’s okay because it is not implementing the Open Meetings Act. People forward e-mails. It sort of crosses the line and gets messy. Commissioner Schulter stated I don’t think e-mails would be good because you could accidentally cc too many people on it. Commissioner Dubiel stated then we need to make sure at these meetings when we are deliberating we know what we are going to put into conditions. There is this kind of time-out where we are communicating that with each other … A lot of times you will come up with this, this and this and its hard to amend that. Commissioner Schulter stated Joe, if there are differences of opinion and we are in a public forum with residents, can we have a side bar to talk to each other. Mr. Annunzio and Vice-Chairman Dimond both stated no, not during the meeting. Mr. Annunzio stated you can amend the motion if you don’t agree with it. Chairman Kanelos stated what he is suggesting is we allow time to discuss it publicly amongst ourselves. Mr. Ostman stated after you hear the testimony and hear public comments, you can close it and discuss it amongst the Commissioners. Chairman Kanelos stated I think the motion is going to be made and then someone will say I’d like to add an additional condition to that motion. Commissioner Dubiel stated the meetings I’ve been at the petitioner comes up, finishes then somebody comes up either for or against, finishes their Page 16 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 thing and then we are looking for findings of fact. We don’t pause to deliberate among one another. Chairman Kanelos stated I think when we’ve had something come up it was always in response to the motion that was made. Then somebody said I’d like to add this to that motion, would you accept this amendment or this condition. Commissioner Dubiel stated we haven’t had close votes. Chairman Kanelos stated if a motion is made I’d have to then ask for further discussion on the motion. Commissioner Dubiel stated we don’t have to take the motion as is. We can amend it. Chairman Kanelos stated yes, and I’m guessing most of the time the amendments are going to be friendly. And whoever made the motion is going to accept it because there are probably going to be conditions, clarifications or finding of fact. Commissioner Dubiel stated if a motion is made do we have to withdraw the motion and start fresh. Is that how formal we have to be? Mr. Annunzio stated no, you can amend the motion unless the motion itself is defective. Commissioner Dubiel stated maybe she [Vice-Chairman Dimond] can get a format that contains this, this and this just like we do … Chairman Kanelos stated yes, and Karen provided a good example of how to do that and if we continue to focus our questions targeted at that, it will make it easier for others to make motions with the same kind of clarity as Karen’s motions. Commissioner Dubiel stated and then the petitioners come up and have … Mr. Ostman stated e-mails are a hot topic in the Village. I want everyone to understand the e-mails. Page 17 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 Mr. Annunzio stated e-mails don’t have any protection at all. There is no privacy when dealing with e-mail, especially an e-mail that has to do with Village business. At least if you are making a telephone call, they have to have probable cause to get in to see what that conversation is about. But when you are talking about e-mails, simple requests through FOIA and it is gone. Mr. Ostman speaking [inaudible.] Mr. Annunzio stated you need to know when you make an e-mail it can go. Every time you write an e-mail someone else is going to read it. It might appear in the newspaper. Chairman Kanelos stated is there anything you want to add about e-mails. Mr. Ostman stated no. I just want to make sure everyone is aware of it. If you want to learn more, please come this Saturday for more discussion about it. Vice-Chairman Dimond stated is that going to be filmed by any chance. Mr. Ostman stated I don’t know if that was ever brought up. We never videotape anything here. Commissioner Schulter stated in the near future does the Village plan on broadcasting these live. Are you sure? Mr. Ostman stated no, I haven’t heard anything to the contrary. Mr. Annunzio stated you are confusing the fact we will have our own station with the concept of videotaping our Board meetings and putting them on our station. I saw no movement in that direction. Commissioner Dubiel stated I think this is something to bring up because you don’t want to have a six or seven hour meeting. Look at the amount of grandstanding that goes on with C-Span. Mr. Annunzio stated we are digressing but there are some municipalities where the Chairman has a button he can press. When someone starts on a diatribe he just presses a button and turns it off. Page 18 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 Mr. Ostman stated going on to the next item – it is a sign code. There has been a Building and Zoning Committee created last June or July. Their responsibility is to move the comprehensive plan forward. The last plan the Village had was in 1969 and it really hasn’t been implemented. This Committee has been given the authority to get that product moving. Ultimately everything comes to this Board because this is the final recommending Board to the Board of Trustees. This Board now has the authority to review the sign code since we did away with the sign Board of Appeals. This Board has the authority to review and make a final recommendation to the Board of Trustees. We retained the service of Ralph Campbell & Associates to take our sign code that dates back to 1965 and bring it up to date. This includes recent law on billboards to electronic sign message boards and election signs and various other items. The entire code will be brought up to date. It is a six month process. We will be having public meetings regarding this especially with the business community. Once the Building and Zoning Committee come up with a final recommendation, it will be brought to this Board to review and ask any questions or make recommendations. Then it goes on to the Board of Trustees for the final approval. Commissioner Nakanishi stated will that address the issue of languages other than English on signs. Mr. Ostman stated we will discuss everything. Vice-Chairman Dimond stated I have a question about the role of our Board and the role of the Board of Trustees in approving various things. On the special uses we are a recommending Board. But with variations we have the final say. Mr. Ostman stated no, there are only ten different situations this Board has the final say. The popular ones are if you want to give away any more than 50% of the rear or front yard, that goes to Village Board of Trustees for final approval. If you want give away the entire side yard, go ahead and do that, you have the final authority. There are going to be eight other types of variations that you have the authority. You have the authority to grant parking variations up to 20%. Anything over 20% has to go to the Village Board of Trustees. Vice-Chairman Dimond stated is that in the administration section. Page 19 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 Mr. Ostman stated yes. Vice-Chairman Dimond stated when it comes to signs, I may be reading this wrong but the one I have says any decision by the Zoning Board of Appeals which results in a variance of 10% or greater from the requirements of this chapter shall be submitted to the Board of Trustees for final review. Also that any people can appeal our decision regarding a sign of the Zoning Board of Appeals. This is from my binder, the sign ordinance. I am trying to get a grasp on when we make a final decision, when we recommend and what the situation is. Mr. Ostman stated you are able to give away 10% of a sign variation in area; anything over that goes to the Village Board of Trustees. You are saying somebody wants to appeal your decision; if it goes to the Board of Trustees you are just a recommending Board. The Village Board has the final say so. If you are the final Board that has the authority and they don’t like your decision, they have to take it to Circuit Court. I’m going to read this section quickly: Any person may appeal the decision of the Zoning Board of Appeals directly to the Board of Trustees upon written notice to the Village Clerk within ten days after the decision. So if you have the final authority they can appeal. Vice-Chairman Dimond stated it says any person - so that could be a neighbor. Let’s say we granted a 5% variation but a neighbor is pretty upset, the neighbor could still appeal that to the Village Board. Mr. Annunzio stated I suppose there could be an argument whether they had the [inaudible] to appeal. Mr. Ostman stated that is what is going on with the sign bill. It is going rather smoothly right now. We had our first meeting with the consultant, Ralph Campbell & Associates, to go over our interpretation of the code. In any town the person responsible for any code is the administrator of the code. They came in and we had a long discussion on how we interpret the code and some of the issues we feel are out there. They are working on an updated sign ordinance right now. The next step is where do the elected officials or this Committee want to go in regard to the sign; what signs do they want to prohibit – maybe electronic message boards, maybe various different signs. What do they want a limit on? What is the height of the sign? They are going to come back at the end of March 1st and talk to the Committee and Page 20 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 discuss some of the limitations or what they would like to see. That is going to be the process. As soon as we get a good draft done, they we will go out for public meetings and invite the business community with the Chamber of Commerce. I keep the Chamber up to date with what is going on. There will be public meetings here. That will be one of two public meetings. The final before it goes to the Board of Trustees will be with the Planning and Zoning Board of Appeals. We will have a meeting March 2 nd and we will get more of a feel what the Committee is looking for. When it gets to you or the Board of Trustees it may be altogether different. Absolutely the signs are coming down. You look at our signs and you could go as high as 30’ to 32’ whereas other municipalities keep it at a max of 12’. We want to stay business friendly, but at the same time we need to look at things. The next one is the comprehensive plan. The Building and Zoning Committee is also responsible for that. We are in the middle of selecting a firm to work on the comprehensive plan. The last one was drafted in 1969. It was shelved and nothing happened to it. It is important for the Village to get an updated plan. You try to do those every ten years. Commissioner Dubiel stated the way the Village is platted and zoned, are there some conflicts driving this. Mr. Ostman stated no, it is just future land use. You heard Grainger is going out. If we drafted a plan two or three years ago, we’d already know what was going to happen with the Grainer property. That is thirty, thirty-five acres. Will it stay industrial? Would the elected officials like to see it turned into retail? Maybe residential. There are a lot of areas to look at. We have Milwaukee Avenue which is short on parking. Will the plan show a long- term goal of the municipality of purchasing any residential property to increase the parking and maybe bring in some restaurants along Milwaukee Avenue? It takes about twelve to fifteen months to complete a comprehensive plan. It encompasses twelve to fourteen public meetings. Should there be a subcommittee of this committee so we get a full range of elected officials to business people, whoever we feel or the firm we retain feels should be on this committee. That is coming down the road. I suspect in two months we will have selected the firm to go with and then from a year to fifteen months to finally come up with a complete comprehensive plan. Landscape ordinance is another one the elected officials have been asking for since we did the Milwaukee Avenue street scape. It is under construction right now but kind of halted during the winter season. What is going on with the landscaping for private developments along Milwaukee Avenue and throughout the Page 21 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 Village of Niles? We hired Eides Ryan Group to look at our landscape ordinance and toughen it up but be reasonable so people can still comply. We know parking is tough along Milwaukee Avenue and if you start requiring a lot of landscaping and you take away parking, that is not going to work in the Village. We are going to try for a good mix between the two. About two years ago our department solicited out to one hundred different firms to provide an RFQ, a request for qualifications, to provide landscape drawings for all the municipal properties in the Village. From that we got eighteen to submit their RFQs. Through that we selected one firm which was Eides Ryan. Over the last year and a half they have provided landscape drawings for all the municipal property. When money becomes available again, we will start implementing that. Commissioner Dubiel stated is that going to effect zoning. Mr. Ostman stated the landscape ordinance is in the zoning code. We may debate if it stays within the zoning code. My guess is it will stay. But it will effect residential, commercial and industrial. The next part is just questions and answers. If anyone has questions or answers maybe we should bring up specific questions. Some of these questions are pulled from Ansell Glink. They put out publications. The first one comes up once in a while: what zoning cases are brought to the Planning and Zoning Board of Appeals. Any request for a building permit or sign permit or land use that does not comply with strict language of the zoning code or sign code comes to you. Sometimes people think any new development that comes into the Village of Niles comes before the plan commission. That is not the case. There are a lot of developments that comply with the zoning code and there is no reason for them to come before the zoning and planning commission. They have the right to obtain a permit and start construction. A perfect example is CVS Pharmacy. It never came up in front of the plan commission. In some municipalities they catch that because they have appearance boards or they have a traffic committee. It’s always been this way for us, if they comply with the zoning code, then I issue the permit. There have been a lot of cases like that. Commissioner Schulter stated do you think our Village will ever have an appearance committee. Mr. Ostman stated it has never been brought up for discussion. Rich and I are having a lot of discussions regarding an appearance committee. Some of Page 22 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 the elected officials may not like the appearance of some of the buildings going up. We feel we are doing a decent job in staying away from the appearance. What really helps the Village of Niles is if you stay away from the red tape it helps big time to bring in those developers. Once you start throwing in all the red tape it really hurts. I’m thankful the process here has been going good. I talk to folks in other towns and they go through all these committees and to put up a Walgreens takes over a year to do it. In the Village of Niles you can get your permit as soon as the plans are approved. It really is an advantage. Mr. Annunzio stated an example of when he had a law office in Park Ridge. I wanted to put up a brass plate. I was so mad at them I made a computer generated sign and stuck it on the window. It was going to take six months for this stupid sign and cost a lot of money just to go through the red tape. Commissioner Schulter stated I am more referring to single family. With the economy now, builders are rehabbing. In the future it is going to boom again. Mr. Ostman stated on the flip side, do you drive around Niles and see houses you don’t like. I know there may be one or two before we caught them that you don’t like. Since we made a lot of changes I don’t think there is a need for an appearance committee on the residential side. That is my opinion. We did put a clause in there that if Rich and I don’t like it we can send it to the Plan Commission. Commissioner Dubiel stated people drop projects in a second if there is a zoning issue. Like in Chicago, if there is a zoning issue, the person will say “whatever” and leave his $100,000 on the table. Mr. Ostman stated we made some minor adjustments as to appearance for a while. Rich and I drive around quite a bit. We look at new construction. We found out that certain homes that had a plain front and no roof lines we ended up making it clear across the board that if there is a front loading garage, we have to have a roof line. We added something simple like that and it made a difference in regard to some of these houses being built. If we can keep doing minor things like that, I think it will really work short of going to an appearance committee. Commissioner Dubiel stated that is a net benefit to the homeowner too. Page 23 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 Mr. Ostman stated I only enforced the one section on a building near Greenwood and Sunset. It looked like an office building. We indicated to the developer they had to come to the planning commission. He kind of walked away from it then. I think it was good for the neighborhood that the office building didn’t go up. We hope not to use it that much but maybe once in a while. I was at a hearing in Elk Grove many years ago and they did go into an executive session to talk about an item. Chairman Kanelos stated answers like most likely not make me a little leery. Mr. Ostman stated there may be something that comes up that the Village Board wants you involved in. Mr. Annunzio stated a good lawyer never says never. Chairman Kanelos stated if we decide let’s go in the back room and talk about this, you’re going to say we can’t do that. Mr. Ostman stated on what grounds can the Planning and Zoning Board of Appeals deny a request for a special use. Commissioner Dubiel stated in this code booklet they talk about adult book stores. Mr. Ostman stated we do have a section for that but I am not up to speed on it at all. Don’t we have a section for adult uses? I don’t know when it was put in the zoning code. Mr. Wlodarski stated yes we do. Mr. Ostman stated the Director of Community Development is the Zoning Administrator. I am responsible for assembling the packages and being the liaison between the Village and this committee, issuing certificate of occupancies, certificates of zoning when a piece of property is being sold. We adopted the property maintenance code and want to make sure it is maintained on the outside as well as the inside. The buyer can take the responsibility if he signs an affidavit at our finance counter of correcting all the violations. If it is a serious violation, they cannot be occupied and we will note on the inspection records there is no occupancy. That doesn’t happen too often. Here is a question: fifty citizens show up at a plan commission Page 24 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 meeting to object a development. Someone notices a published public notice was invalid. Can the formal meeting continue? We have a state law requirement and a local ordinance requirement that all the property owners within 250’ for a variation of a special use be notified. In a lot of towns they do a certified mailing. Here, the applicant provides a list of all the property owners and the envelopes addressed to each property owner with a stamp affixed to the envelope and a return address to the Village of Niles, the Village will actually stuff the envelopes and mail them out without the applicant going through the expense of sending them out certified. One thing we don’t do is put a sign out on the property. Most other municipalities, if there is going to be a public hearing on a specific piece of property, there is a sign the Public Works department will put out on the front of that property saying the subject property is up for a rezoning or text amendment or whatever. Not everybody reads the newspaper. You may live a half block down and someone is proposing to put a church in that location. Vice-Chairman Dimond stated it has come up a few times that we should post a sign there. What process can we use to make such a recommendation? Mr. Ostman stated we have a segment on the agenda every time just for general discussion. If this Board feels they would like to implement something like that at that time, direct me to draft the procedure, ordinance or whatever it may be to make that recommendation to the Board of Trustees the following meeting. I’ll come back with the ordinance or whatever it may be, present it to you and if you feel comfortable with it you would forward it on to the Board of Trustees. I encourage that and look at some of the other improvements you can make on this Village. Commissioner Schulter stated can we recommend it now since this is a meeting. Mr. Annunzio stated it is not on the agenda. Mr. Ostman stated it can go on the agenda next month when we want to discuss the topic and the ordinance. Commissioner Dubiel stated in the question where fifty citizens show up, I think there is more of a danger if no one shows up. This is worse. Page 25 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 Mr. Ostman stated an example is when the cell tower went up behind Public Works, we had the applicant provide all the owners within 250’. One person said I never got a notice. So I said what is your name and address. I found out the applicant messed up on providing all the names. Commissioner Dubiel stated you provide all the names, right. Mr. Ostman stated no, we do not provide the names. We provide the PIN numbers. Vice-Chairman Dimond stated one reason I like posting is if you are looking at PIN numbers, the owners of the property may get the notice but let’s say there is a small apartment building there, the long term tenants that are going to be affected will never know. Mr. Ostman stated the same thing if you are in the commercial district. You may get a retail store going into a shopping center with a special use, the property owner may know about it but the rest of the tenants will never know about it. So it is good to post the property. Are they federal laws or rules that apply to special use to construct a cellular telephone antenna? It says municipalities can go ahead and force the cell carrier to use the existing cell towers. We clearly are doing that. All these carriers really do work with the municipalities. We spent a lot of time with that one flagpole at the part district. They wanted to get at Milwaukee and Oakton and we tried every which way for a couple of years. I finally saw a tower that looked like a tree but it was a tower. I researched more and found we could put a flagpole up. Other municipalities don’t even realize that. I see these ugly cell towers going up right along the ball fields or on park district land. They shouldn’t let that happen. It could be a normal pole without all that equipment hanging off the top. That is an improvement by itself if they can get the equipment inside the pole. Do we need to have verbatim transcripts of these meetings? It was asked by one of the Trustees. Starting tonight the minutes will not be verbatim. They will be summarized. They will not be verbatim. Commissioner Dubiel [inaudible.] Chairman Kanelos stated we must be very specific when addressing the findings of fact so it easier to make sure they are included in the minutes. Mr. Ostman stated next one is: are religious institutions entitled to special Page 26 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 treatments in zoning cases. They have been accorded some preferential treatment under the Illinois law as well as federal law. Courts have routinely upheld the applicant of zoning and other land use regulations and religious institutions. Federal courts have recently issued several decisions that will strengthen a municipality’s position in a suit brought against it under federal religious land use. For example, religious institutions are subject to reasonable parking requirements in the same way as other facilities that general traffic needs. You have to have some real good proof to deny a religious institution. In the Village of Niles they are only permitted in the R districts, not permitted in the B districts, not permitted in the M districts. That doesn’t give them a right to move into the B district. We do get a lot of requests for religious institutions in town. The main thing I look at is parking. We have a lot of issues with parking at churches on Caldwell Avenue. We can never let that happen again. It is very hard to meet the parking regulations; that is why you don’t see it come up often. Commissioner Dubiel stated do we have any issues with minarets on a mosque. The height of it. Mr. Ostman stated the maximum height is 36’. That is in almost all districts – 36’. When Shure was done, they did a variation to go up the seven stories; later we changed that property to a planned unit development for that annex on the back side. Commissioner Dubiel stated I know in Islamic law, the minaret is supposed to be the highest physical structure in the area. Mr. Ostman stated what do you do if legal notice regarding a zoning change is in error - if a legal description is published in error. Right now most municipalities put a legal description in their legal notice. We do not put in a legal description. I have to research that. Commissioner Dubiel stated I’d be careful about putting in a legal description. If you make one small mistake and people don’t normally know their property by the legal description… Even a plat of survey might work, say this is the pin number. Mr. Ostman stated I want to make sure of what we have to do. Page 27 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 Chairman Kanelos stated does any one have other specific questions for Chuck or Joe. Commissioner Schulter stated are we covered through the Village through errors and omissions. Mr. Annunzio stated sure. Commissioner Dubiel stated civilly as well like a police officer, do you cover us both ways? Mr. Annunzio stated yes. You better be doing Village business. Chairman Kanelos stated do we have other new business. Commissioner Schulter stated I recommend we discuss placing the signs for posting, in addition to the public notice. And we can discuss how big these signs will be. Vice-Chairman Dimond stated I will make a recommendation. What we are looking for is a proposed draft change we can review at the next meeting and see if we like it. Then we can recommend it. Commissioner Dubiel stated I know of a couple projects people don’t feel like going through the 250’ circle to mail out notices. Mr. Ostman stated we reach out 350’. Chairman Kanelos stated the motion is to request for suggested text for a sign for posting on a petitioner’s property that is coming before this Board. Commissioner Schulter stated are we speaking just for special uses. Variances too? What do other villages do? Chairman Kanelos stated for everything that comes before this Board. You make the request. I’d assume it would be both. Mr. Ostman stated I honestly haven’t researched it yet. I will report back to you. Public Works or my staff would place the signs. We have one mostly done except for the dates. Page 28 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 Commissioner Schulter stated besides Park Ridge, does Skokie also put signs out. Mr. Ostman stated I think everybody does. I will do a survey. Commissioner Dubiel stated is it because not enough notice was given. Mr. Ostman stated a lot of people don’t read the newspaper or the web. Commissioner Dubiel stated the library spends $6 million per year and people never come to our meetings. Mr. Annunzio stated one of the things that has to be looked at when testimony is given… let’s say someone is complaining about lights on top of a building. They live on the other side of town. You have to take the whole piece of evidence into account. You let him speak but what is the relevance of what he is talking about. Chairman Kanelos stated if no one living next door is complaining about the lights, and somebody on the other side of town is, you have to take it into consideration. Mr. Ostman stated we tried it one time as an experiment about four years ago in Bunker Hill subdivision. There was an uproar amongst the residents. We posted a sign in front of the property owner’s house that wanted to put on a second floor addition. We really got everyone involved as soon as we posted the property. It ended up being good. Commissioner Dubiel stated I don’t think we have to do everything everybody else does. We’ve got to be Niles. One of the nice things is this family level of casualness that makes us pro business and pro citizen. Vice-Chairman Dimond stated I think it is fairer to put a sign up. Chairman Kanelos stated what Karen’s point is within 350’ there is a six unit apartment building and the owner of building… you have to decide since the tenants are coming and going and the owner of the building is not. We need to discuss the issue and come up with a way to do it. Mr. Annunzio stated I’ve been doing this a long time and this is the first time Page 29 of 30  APPROVED MINUTES OF THE SEMINAR OF THE PLAN COMMISSION AND ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS VILLAGE OF NILES COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS February 1, 2010 I’ve seen an ordinance generated from this Board. Mr. Ostman stated this will be a first. Chairman Kanelos stated if there are no other questions I will entertain a motion to adjourn. Vice-Chairman Dimond moved to adjourn the meeting. Seconded by Commissioner Surace, on roll call the vote was: AYES: 6 Dimond, Surace, Kanelos, Nakanishi, Schulter, Dubiel NAYS: 0 ABSENT: 1 Troiani Their being six (6) affirmative votes the motion carried. The meeting adjourned at 8:50 p.m. Kathleen Janessa, Recording Secretary Page 30 of 30